By merging hip-hop with gospel, he brought the stars and sound of the club scene into the church — and not everyone in the church has been comfortable with that.

Franklin continues to challenge audiences with his latest album, titled Losing My Religion. He spoke with NPR's Michel Martin about pursuing faith without dogma, and why he wants to make God a cultural celebrity. Hear the radio version at the audio link, and read more from their conversation below.

Michel Martin: So we have to get right to the title track. It's a lengthy spoken-word piece, and it concludes with, "I'm losing my religion, Thank God / Helping you lose yours is my job." What was the inspiration, and what was your message here?

Kirk Franklin: Well, I feel that the pursuit of trying to know who God is, and trying to be known by God, can be lost in religion. Because religion, all that it is, is man's attempt to try to put a definition on something that is very hard to define. We haven't seen God with a physical eye, so we're trying to understand him — sometimes from an academic approach, from a scientific approach, from a literal approach.

We end up missing the incredible story — God made man, man rejected God, and God won't stop chasing man until he wins him back. And that's the simple story of God. Religion can create so much of a dogma and so much of a cloud to that simple story that people don't want to know God. They see God as someone with the big belt, that's gonna whoop you every time you do wrong.

For centuries, people have been debating this question of whether our structures get in the way of our faith. And I just wondered, was there an epiphany for you? Did you have kind of a moment on the road to Damascus where something struck you? Or has this been something that's been churning for some time?

Yes, I think there's something that has kind of been part of my psyche for many years. I mean, even in the song that I wrote years ago called "Revolution," back in '98 when I was 28 years old, there's a line I said about, "sick and tired of the Church talkin' religion."

I've always seen that framework as challenging. Because I don't see people that have fallen in love with God through religion. I've seen people fall in love with God, or come to see God loving them, through a relationship.

Well tell me about the closing line, then: "I'm losing my religion." What is that a call for?

Rules without relationship leads to rebellion. So, what I want to be able to do is to not let rules be the premise that drives us to God, because rules will never drive us to God — rules will drive us away from God. My job on Earth, the reason why Kirk is created, is to make God famous. I just want God to be well-known. And I think it's created a dialogue — I think it's opened up conversation, and people have started to talk about what religion is to them.

The big hit on the album is a song called "Wanna Be Happy?" And again, I'm sure people are going to hear it in different ways. What was your inspiration for this song?

You know, my job is try to also create a horizontal Jesus. Most gospel music is very vertical. And there's nothing wrong with that — there's nothing wrong with, you know, "God, we praise you," and "hallelujah." Those songs are very important. But I also like to do songs that are very horizontal, that kind of fit within the fabric of people's everyday life. Wanting to be happy is something that every human being aspires to have. That's a conversation that anybody can have at any time. But what I'm saying is that happiness is not something that you wish for — happiness is something that you work for.

On that point, about kind of meeting people where they are: "True Story" is a piece that really struck me. There are no easy answers in it. Traditionally, people think of gospel music as comforting — it's something that gives you comfort in a time of pain and tells you everything's going to be all right. This song really doesn't do that.

No, no, no. When you read stories in the Bible — you know, Samson or the story of David or the story of Moses — there's conflict on the way to the victory. When you have this very vanilla-type faith presentation, of everybody smiling like they just got their teeth cleaned? That's not where real people live! Real people live with being Christians with cancer, Christians with AIDS, Christians coming back home with limbs missing from war, Christians being evicted and Christians losing their homes. If you don't paint that picture, too, then I think that you are misrepresenting what the faith really can look like. The faith is not always sunny days. If we don't do that, then I think that we are selling the wrong message.

Transcript
MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Over the past 25 years, there has been no bigger name in gospel music than Kirk Franklin, and there have been few who have inspired more controversy, in part because he has merged hip-pop with gospel and brought the stars and the sounds of the club scene into the church.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "STOMP")
KIRK FRANKLIN: For those of you that think that gospel music has gone too far, you think we've gotten too radical with our message. Well, I've got news for you. You ain't heard nothing yet. And if you don't know, now you know.
MARTIN: As you might imagine, not everybody has been comfortable with that, but Kirk Franklin continues to challenge us with his latest album. It is titled "Losing My Religion," and Kirk Franklin is with us now. He's in Dallas. Kirk Franklin, thank you so much for speaking with us. Welcome.
FRANKLIN: What's going on man? It's just an honor to talk to you.
MARTIN: Well, thank you so much. Thank you...
FRANKLIN: ...It is. Thank you for having me.
MARTIN: So we have to get right to the title track. It is a spoken word piece, and we must talk about it. So let's give people a little taste of it. For those who have not yet heard it, here it is.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LOSING MY RELIGION")
FRANKLIN: In the beginning, religion created a mask. The Reformation helped, but soon the patch didn't last. I don't tell, you don't ask. So we created a lie and for generations, church was where we went to go hide or we no longer tried because rules read our relationship is empty inside.
MARTIN: And it goes on, and it concludes with...
FRANKLIN: ...And on and on and on and on...
MARTIN: ...It concludes with I'm losing my religion. Thank God. Helping you lose yours is my job. Whoa. What was the inspiration? What's your message here?
FRANKLIN: Yeah, well, you know, I feel that the pursuit of trying to know who God is and trying to be known by God can be lost in religion because religion, all that it is is man's attempt to try to put a definition on something that is very hard to define. We haven't seen God with the physical eye, so we're trying to understand him sometimes from an academic approach, from a scientific approach, from a literal approach. But we end up missing the incredible story of God made man, man rejected God and God won't stop chasing man until he wins him back. And religion can create so much of a cloud to that simple story that people don't want to know God. They see God as someone with a big belt that's going to whoop (ph) you every time you do wrong.
MARTIN: Really - I mean, for centuries, people have been debating this question or arguing whether our structures get in the way of our faith. And yet, there are some very contemporary and present-day issues in this piece. For example, you say every Sunday we're divided. Who's black, who's white?
FRANKLIN: Now, the man in the mirror never gets race right. He'll never be Christ-like, never receive good pay, so your fate never rises above minimum wage. So when it's time to save the world, you don't know what to say to your brother that you love when he tells you he's gay. Do you push him away? Judge him down 'til he leaves? Give him a gospel he hears or a gospel he sees?
MARTIN: How are your fans hearing this, because I'm imagining people might hear this in different ways. I'm imagining many people would hear this as a call for more appreciation and tolerance of people in same-gender loving relationships, which is, as you know, not necessarily the position that many Christians take.
FRANKLIN: I believe that people hear based on their compass. Their compass is based on where it's already preset. For example, like, I have four children. And all four of my children have sat at my dinner table all their lives. And I have two older children who responded different to the food I put on the table because one thing I can't put inside of my children is appetite. They have to come to the table hungry. And based on what people's hunger is, it's going to be based on their translation. And I think it's created dialogue. I think it's opened up conversation. I think people have started to talk and people are starting to talk about what religion is to them. And if I have done anything else but create a climate of conversation, I hope I've done my job.
MARTIN: I'm speaking with Kirk Franklin. His latest album is "Losing My Religion," which is a spoken word piece. But it's - that's the only spoken word - there's a lot of music on the album. I just want to play a little bit from "True Story," which is a piece that just really struck me.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TRUE STORY")
FRANKLIN: (Singing) True story.
UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (Singing) Since last August, no job in sight. He's now across the water, another war to fight. He's made a lot of mistakes, but he wants to make things right when he comes back home from battle. Another boy got shot last night.
FRANKLIN: (Singing) He said...
UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (Singing) ...Lord, please help me, I'm lost. Don't leave. I've tried and tried, but this one thing.
FRANKLIN: First of all, that sounds so good.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
FRANKLIN: That sounds so good in my headphones, man. I love it, man.
MARTIN: You know why? I must tell you, I listened to this several times and there's no easy answers in it. It's very much - it's such a cliche, you know, taken from the headlines but, you know, traditionally many people think of gospel music as comforting, right? It's something that gives you comfort in a time of pain and tells you everything's going to be all right. This song really doesn't do that.
FRANKLIN: No, no, no. You know, when you read stories in the Bible - you know, Samson, the story of David or the story of Moses - you know, there's conflict on the way to the victory. When you have this very vanilla-type faith presentation of, you know, everybody smiling like they just got their teeth cleaned and (laughter) you know, that's not where real people live. Real people live with, you know, being Christians with cancer, Christians with AIDS, and Christians coming back home with limbs missing from war, and Christians being evicted, and Christians losing their homes. And if you don't paint that picture, too, then I think that you are misrepresenting what the faith really can look like. The faith is not always sunny days. And if we don't do that, then I think that we are selling the wrong message.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "1-2-3 VICTORY")
UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (Singing) Hey, y'all, 1, 2, 3.
MARTIN: That is Kirk Franklin. His latest album is called "Losing My Religion," and we're going to go out on "1-2-3 Victory." Kirk Franklin, thank you so much for speaking with us.
FRANKLIN: No, thank you for this opportunity.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "1-2-3 VICTORY")
FRANKLIN: (Singing) I just got laid off.
UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (Singing) I'm doing good.
FRANKLIN: (Singing) House ain't even paid off.
UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (Singing) I'm doing good.
FRANKLIN: (Singing) Should be afraid, but -
UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (Singing) I'm feeling good
FRANKLIN: (Singing) All the time you say -
UNIDENTIFIED CHOIR: (Singing) God is good. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.

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